Posted by: minnow | January 23, 2009

Christ Followers

Lots of people call themselves Christians. Yet, some of those insist that the rest really are not. So, how do we know? Is it enough just to claim to be one? I mean, I can say I am a writer but if I do not write anything or if nothing I write ever gets published am I really a writer? And, what do we even mean when we call ourselves Christians? Now a days it often sounds like Christian is synonymous with American. Is it? What is the bottom line? To qualify as a “Christian” do we actually need to know, believe, or claim some particular doctrine? Or just live in the United States? To be a Christ-follower is there something we actually need to do?

A comment from Greg, over on the Parchment and Pen blog I referenced in my last post, pointed out that we can all read the same Bible and come away thinking it says some very different things. I added that we can even be taught what the Bible says by some pretty scholarly individuals and still not all agree. So if the know-it-alls do not even know it all what does that mean for the rest of us? I mean, the Holy Bible is The Book with all the answers, right? And while at times it seems like we have as many translations of the Bible as we do denominations, with over a hundred denominations do out number translations and in fact the various translations actually agree on most of the basics.

Personally I do not have a problem living with the various idiosyncrasies and nuances of different Christian groups. In fact, I like that the Calvinists and Armenians, for example, hold each other in tension over a few “issues”, like predestination. It lets me choose from the differing points of view and not feel guilty if I do not agree with the strict party line. Still, when the discussion begins to get ugly and adherents of any one particular start name calling, belittling, or questioning the salvation of another particular I am grieved, and angered, and sometimes righteously indignant (which rarely actually helps by the way). I mean really people, what ever happened to “and they will know we are Christians by our love”?

If you have read many of my other posts you know one of my biggest gripes is with do nothing Christianity. In my opinion, if we are going to wear the label we better look like the designer intended us to look! I believe in a great big God. I think He is so complex, so multifaceted that each one of us could have one little glimmer of the truth and there would still be more to discover. At the same time I think His book is pretty clear on how He expects us to relate to one another and to the world.

Please hear what I am saying and not what you want me to be saying in order to have something to argue against. I am not saying all roads lead to God. Jesus himself told us He and He alone is the only way to the Father and I believe He knows what He is talking about. In fact, I would say if we call ourselves Christians believing Jesus is the only way to God is one of the set in stone components of our faith. Christ’s birth, sinless life, death on the cross, and resurrection, God’s love, and the Holy Spirit’s transforming power pretty much sum up the rest of what I would call the essentials of Christianity–what we need to believe.

But, is believing the essentials about Christ and who the Bible says He is enough to be called a Christian? Frankly, I am a little tired of the mentality that says if I dot all the right I’s and cross all the right T’s of my doctrine and proclaim it every Sunday morning I have nothing to worry about. Way too many of us expect the dying to drive their own ambulances to the “hospital”. Not only that but, we would prefer they have their wounds dressed properly before they arrive. Talk to the average pew sitter and I suspect if you bring up the idea of “going outside the building” he or she will think you are talking about foreign missions, a city wide Church gathering, or a once a year evangelism project, anything they could give a little money to. Very few would think in terms of personally volunteering at the local homeless shelter, becoming involved in a monthly prison ministry, manning a weekly foodbank, or taking on the long term mentoring of an unwed mom.

When His followers asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was He answered them, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind.” Then He added, “And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.” In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats Jesus explained to the crowd that what was done or not done for the “least of these” was done or not done for Him. During the last supper Jesus told His disciples, “My command is this: love each other as I have loved you.” After His resurrection Jesus asked Simon Peter if he loved Him. When Peter answered, “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus told Peter, “Feed my sheep.”

The love Christ preached both in word and in deed was active, relational. It required, requires an investment. If we are His disciples (students), and if we call ourselves Christians (little Christs) then we need to preach both in our words and in our deeds the same message Jesus preached, preaches to us.

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Responses

  1. I liked that one very much Minnow. 🙂

    Was that a shout out to me with the I’m NOT saying all roads lead to Christ? 🙂 hehe I didn’t think that in this post at all – the others 2 on hell did confuse me on that viewpoint though.

    have a graet weekend! 🙂

  2. p.s. I’m sorry I always have p.s-s

    as far as those who aren’t mature enough in their walk yet and are just claiming christianity and not growing in it. If they accepted Jesus – they are saved… if they are not growing and learning how to live that – that’s just a lack of maturity. We are all at different parts of the journey… I know I was like that for a LONG LONG LONG time and I would still consider myself a christian that whole time because I was saved…but you’re right – we desire all christians to do the part not just talk about it.

    but I think it’s our job to be merciful to them and just think “well if they aren’t against Him, they are for Him” type thing…. and pray that God will open their hearts to His truth and other’s examples and will stretch them to live out what it means to them to BE a christian – a follower of Christ in belief AND actions.

  3. Randi–
    No shout out to you at all though after I wrote that part I thought about you. I’m sorry if it was offensive. I was actually still reacting to some of the comments on the P&P blog. His blogs stretch me but they are absolutely from a Calvinistic POV.
    As far as those who aren’t “mature” I think 20, 30 years in the church is enough time for most to have gained some maturity and certainly leadership should be “mature” in their faith. Sadly, I have heard of pastors who have not spoken to non-Christians in a witnessing sort of way, and have not rubbed elbows with non-Christians in a helping sort of way (outside the walls of their buildings) for their entire ministries, expecting the “flock” to bring them in the doors where his work for the Lord was done. That is the finger pointing I’m actually doing. If we were actually doing ministry inside the building I might have a little more grace but we seem to expect “them” to dress up before they get to Church since Sunday morning isn’t exactly the time or place for dealing with messes. Small groups are really the “appropriate” time and place for messes. But with no reliable transportation and no childcare options small groups just aren’t (for some) an option either. I probably seem to be coming up with “excuses” but thrust me I really am no better at it (haha) then those who are feeling discouraged and have a chip on their shoulder. I think what I heard you say about sharing/rotating the childcare responsibilities in the LOL group you’re starting is a good idea. I don’t know what kind of numbers you will be seeing but as far as childcare is concerned I suggest you try to pair up the ladies–a mature Christian with a newbie. If this is the newbie’s only chance to get away all week and she’s “stuck” with childcare at least have a small opportunity for fellowship for her. It’s amazing how well ladies can multitask when they are starved for fellowship. Sorry to get off topic but I’ve been thinking about your group and ceased the opportunity to spout a little.

  4. thanks Minnow!! 🙂 great suggestion for the LOL’s! 🙂

    and I know what you’re saying – although you’ve seen a lot more negative immature & not growing people than I have — but I just have to believe that some people may never mature in their walk. Some people will never “get it”…. there will always be those who “get it” more than others…..

    why are some of those who aren’t maturing & growing & doing – leading some of the biggest church bodies around the country?? I don’t know… I guess them leading could be a symptom of their immaturity – they lead out of self-righteouesness or works. they think they have it figured out even if they don’t. but they need mercy too. they might be so far deep into a different way of thinking / relating / doing… they can’t see past the end of their nose. We have to pray for God to open their hearts. to break their hearts for what braeks His.

    I don’t know…

    I know it’s hard. especially when so many have been hurt by people like these who aren’t walking the walk in any way of the scripture we read… I have to believe there is hope for them though…. and that mercy is necessary for these that don’t ‘know’ the gospel. Just as much mercy is needed for them, if not more, than mercy for those who literally have never heard the gospel…. both groups just don’t know that they don’t know.

    love ya !:)

  5. Hi Minnow,

    Thanks for the thought-provoking post. Your questions mirror a lot of questions I’ve had lately. I don’t have any answers, but I do have a couple of interesting language lessons that we don’t always here in church…
    1) The “Name” of Jesus. The original Hebrew/Greek translations of the word “Name” actually mean “nature.” A lot of the scriptures you quoted talk about the nature of Jesus. So, when we pray in the “name” of Jesus, it doesn’t necessarily mean we have to be saying “Jesus.” I laugh in my head because, a lot of times, I hear “In the name of Jesus” tacked onto the end of a public prayer, as if we have to say that phrase to make the prayer stick.

    In fact, God could have been having a bad day and decided to call his earthly son “Englebert.” Would some of us then be saying “In the name of Englebert?” My point is that it is in the nature of Jesus, in his way, in the way he does things, that we want to abide. I think that jives with the scriptures you’ve presented here.

    2) The word “Denomination” actually means “to further name.” So, most lines that are drawn between different groups of Christians were drawn because someone disagreed with a Biblical position, developed their own ideas, and further defined who they were by their new ideas. They further defined their nature.

    I don’t know the answers to these big questions (And I admire you for tackling them.) But, I do know one thing for sure. I never want Jesus to say to me, “Depart from me, you worker of iniquity. I never knew you.” And he said that to some pretty big higher-ups in the religious world of his day.

    Thanks, Shelby

  6. Hi Minow,
    It is ironic that you are writing on how we know who really is a Christian. Just because someone says they are a Christian does not make them one.
    I say it is ironic because, the last time I heard from you, you were chastising me for my words on Rachael Evan’s blog comment section. Did you read my response? It was directly under your comment at Love One Another.
    Since it is applicable to the topic, I am going to post my response to your comment here:

    “Minnowspeaks,
    You are refering to Rachel Evans who blasted Dr. James Dobson for being opinionated and accusing him of being rude.

    The one thing nominal Christians do not understand is Christians should be entirely bold and courageous for what is absolute and right by God’s standard. God said to Joshua, “Be bold and courageous”.

    Non Christians feel that Christians should not be expected to open their mouths. Many Christians believe this as well.

    This Rachel Evans is the same person who is siding with Obama’s theology over Dobson’s. Dobson is a teacher on behalf of Christ. Why would a Christian side with Obama who says he would have his own grand babies aborted if his daughters made a “mistake”? Then Obama goes on to say that he wants to teach his daughters virtues and morals. What a convoluted mind! And shame on you for being supportive of Evans and Obama.

    Did you hear what Obama said to the people in North Carolina just before their primary? He said, his mother did not place her faith in Jesus as his “was”. But, he believes that he will see his mother in Heaven.

    In response to morals: He said there are many religions that lead to a relationship with God. In fact, he pats himself on the back saying: “I know many Jews who are even more moral than I”.

    Let me be clear. I love people for the love of God. I want for them what God wants with them – a relationship. However, as Jesus turned over the tables and sacked the make shift market the merchants made in the temple, “God’s House” (at that time) I will stand against any corruption of the Body of Christ, The Temple (which are the people) of God.

    Yes, I will admit. The tone is harsh. And meant to be.

    Rachel Evans is a journalist, of sourts. She claims to be a Christian and says in her profile,
    something like: (I am not going to try and track her page down to do an exact quote)- but it was something like this:

    “I am a devoted follower of Christ. I, as every other Christian, will spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what that means”.

    Minnow,
    Truthfully, I do not care to hide, or be ashamed for standing up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The media is doing a great job at that. They have fallent into a frenzy. They will have to learn that the things of this earth, including themselves for compromising the Word of God, will all pass away. But Heaven and Earth will remain.

    If I dropped a “bomb” in the room, and it caught some attention, then I am not sorry.

    To say the title of my manuscript is ironic because I made theologically correct statements toward her support, and the errancy of Barak Obama, has nothing to do with my love for people.

    If you knew me, you would know I am fare and easyily am willing to admit where I am wrong. However, you will have to show me where I erred. This means, show me where I am not permitted, according to the word of God to stand against the opposition the world brings on Christ.

    If I attempt to take someone to task for speaking in favor of a man who’s theology allows for Gay and Lesbian rights accross the board, or is in favor of aborting a baby up to the second of the childs first breath, I do so out of love.

    It is out of love I admonish a nominal Christian. Why? I mean, I sounded so harsh, right? Because God loves her and all of the people she is unknowingly about to mislead. She, for her own good, needs to be corrected concerning her theology. I am certain she felt proud in writing her support for Obama. This is where she is in error. Support God’s cause. Draw close to him in everything that is right and He will draw close to you. No more compromise.

  7. Jim–My policy is to print all comments unless they are off topic or extremely rude, vulgar, or inappropriate. I make some exceptions such as a “nice” comment which linked to a u-tube video that was an hour plus long. I didn’t bother to watch the whole video so I just deleted the comment.
    Anyway, I did not find the comment you wrote at the link you left, nor did I find it on Rachel Evans’ blog post about Dobson and Obama. If you’ve spent any time looking at my blog you will probably find I am less traditional in some of my thinking then even Ms Evans.
    While I do not agree with President Obama’s position on abortion my concerns about “life” are a bit broader than the single issue of abortion. I may be addressing the abortion issue in an up coming post and your comments will be welcome.
    I did not vote for President Obama but I can’t jump on board with those who may be thinking the world is coming to an end because he was elected. So far he has shown himself to be a very liberal democrat and nothing more.
    As for this post and how your comments relate–for me, actions speak louder than words. And I am really tired of the self-centered “bless me because I am holy like you, God” attitude I can’t seem to get away from in evangelical Christianity. And then to say, “It’s okay if I sound ugly–I’M defending God.” Give me a break!

  8. Hi Minnow,
    Thanks for your honesty, referencing my commensts to Evans.

    I don’t believe it is o.k. to sound ugly. I do believe that the truth concerning the defense of the Gospel can appear unkind. I probably could have helped it to be more gentle. But, I did not. Maybe that is my failure.

    What I honestly believe in, is to take a feirce stand for the family of God and the agenda God has for His family. When well meaning people are mislead, they can use their influence to lead others down the same path. Remember the song by Steven Curtise Chapman titled, “Blind lead the blind” ?

    What do you think the example of Jesus’ anger was about when he drove the money changers and the make shift businesses out of the Temple? And, what is the Temple of God today? Not a rhetorical question. Also, I don’t mean to be condescending.
    Jim

  9. Minnow,
    BTW. The comment I copied to your page is under Chapter One, “God Created Man” in the comments section, directly beneath your comment in my Love One Another blog.
    Jim

  10. Jim–Thank you for your dialogue. I found your reference and I appologize for the judgemental attitude in my comment.
    At the risk of coming across as judgmental again however, I need to say that when I read comments like this: “What I honestly believe in, is to take a feirce stand for the family of God and the agenda God has for His family.” I get nervous because I believe the family of God is sometimes a lot different from God’s point of view than from ours. Please hear what I am saying and not what I am not. I do not believe all roads lead to the same place however, I think that God is big enough to include both some of my perspective and some of yours and He is sovereign enough to say neither yours nor mine fit perfectly.
    You mention the money changers. Jesus said to them “How dare you make my Father’s house a market!” Now in fellowships all across the country we have little coffee shops (so the youth group can earn money) and book stores (so the most recent sermons can be sold on CDs) but our zeal is against politicians. Again, hear all of what I am saying. I do my share of pointing out where I think the media is biased and politicians’ policies are misguided. BUT, if Building-based Christianity does not become more willing to take a critical look at our own policies, agendas, behavior, and attitudes we will prove ourselves no better than the Pharisees Jesus compared to whitewashed tombs.

  11. Hi Minnow,
    Recently, I posted on the seemingly week theology of the church. My focus was on the unwilling nature of Pastors who seek popularity. Thus, they do not say “what saith the Lord” but what is gentle on the ears of the parishoners.

    Is this what you are refering to when you say:

    “Building-based Christianity does not become more willing to take a critical look at our own policies, agendas, behavior, and attitudes we will prove ourselves no better than the Pharisees “?

    I do also understand that you feel our policies are too restrictive. That is the case in a lot of churches. It is also relative to the person who feels oppressed. In the church I attend, I feel the church turns it’s head on a lot of issues.

    Sure, God is big enough to include much of what we are feeling or what our thoughts are on specific issues. The scripture says (paraphrase) God sees to the hearts of man. I don’t believe God holds us to a letter such as the Pharisees would have. What I think is important to the Lord is the essence of how we apply His love and Grace. Are we willing to be gracious to others? Are will willing to help people find love for God and others? These are important issues, central to God’s character.

    Please know, I don’t perceive us to be engaging in an argument. I want to understand your point of view. I also would like for you to know, my nature is not to be unkind. I may lack tact. Though, I see that what I say is not too difficult to understand, (in Rachael Evans’ case) for the purpose of teaching responsible Biblical doctrine. Rachael chose to jump on the irresponsible band wagon and criticise Dobson for chasening Obama. Obama does not know the Bible. He made a statement antithetical to what you and I beleive. He said, he believes he will see his mother in Heaven. Though she was not a Christian. Rachael should have known better than to get on the wagon with the rest of those who support Obama’s brand of Christianity. Esspecially since she says she is a “faithful, devoted follower of Christ”. Further, Rachael gives herself away when, in her profile, she claims she will spend the rest of her life attempting to understand what that means.

    Now, I think you can see why I had a problem with her post this past summer. She is fraudulantly claiming to know the Lord. She is affectionatly embracing the language of a truly devoted follower of Christ. However, in her own words, she betrays Christ in support for Obama as she railed against Dobson. She betrays her own argument in her profile statement as someone who will spend the rest of her life trying to figure out what it means to be a “faithful and devoted follower of Christ”.
    Jim

  12. I think we have moved passed worrying too much about offending one another by how we say what we say. Please feel free to let me know if I sound judgmental of your character for that would truly not be my intent.
    I do not follow James Dobson. Years ago I very much appreciated his work on the Pornography commission but I later found him to be more concerned about voicing what he was against then what he was for and I quit listening. I personally draw some very firm lines between the Church and the world. At the same time I also firmly believe love, compassion, forgiveness, mercy, grace, and much prayer are to proceed all of what we do with regard to one another and with regard to the world, especially when it comes to preaching correction. I believe this to be the Biblical model and so I take it as my directive to the best of my ability. That said, I believe President Obama has studied the Bible and may still. I believe he is a Christian. I think some of his thinking is off kilter but not so off that it would cancel out his admission of his own need for a savior and confession of faith. I believe this to be true of Rachel Evans as well. Her admission that she will spend the rest of her life attempting to understand what being a faithful and devoted follower of Christ means is not, in my opinion, saying that she doubts Christ. I think it was an awkwardly worded way of saying being faithful, devoted and human (as opposed to being God) is a rough mix because we don’t “get it”. We don’t understand. We fail. But she will try to seek God in it all. Can any of us really claim to do more than that?!
    We need to becareful that we don’t build the pedestals under godly men too high. Dobson is just a man. And, some of his choices during the campaign caused me to squint with frustration. I would be hard pressed to find anything to criticise about Billy Graham but I’m guessing his wife, Ruth, could probably point out a few human flaws if pressed to do so. The point is Rachel saw something in the Dr. Dobson/President Obama issue that you did not see and did not agree with but calling her claim to know the Lord fraudulant–I simply cannot go there. Criticising men we admire, respect and regard as God’s ambassadors is not the same as criticising God.
    To briefly answer your first question, I believe that if a pastor dares to say, “And thus saith the Lord” that pastor had better have spent at least as much time in listening prayer as the pastor spent preparing the sermon. Regards–Minnow

  13. Hi Minnow,
    All that you had to say is well taken, well thought out and more than fare.

    I see little growth in President Obama’s Christian experience and have heard him twice (once on George Stephanopolis) make reference to his “Muslim Faith”. George corrected him. Don’t know how a Christian can make that mistake. I’ll move on from Obama.

    I too used to listen to Focus on the Family a lot. I don’t attempt to seek Dobson’s ministry out. If I happen to have the radio on and I hear Dobson, I may continue to listen.

    I think one of the things Billy Graham did that hurt the Christian understanding for the core message of the Bible was having used hooks in his attempts to draw people to accept Christ at his crusades. The most famous hook, “If you were to die this day, would you die with the assurance that your soul would go to Heaven?”.

    This hook has made it very difficult for ministers to be able to explain and preach the need for works and salvation. Here is a post that explains my point, On Works and Salvation. You may find more understanding in my reply to a particular commentor in the comments section of this post.

    Forgive me for being rather brief in my comments here on your blog. I am exhausted and need to go to bed. Have a good evening.

    By the way, I am interested in hosting a link on my page to your blog. I will try and get around to it tomorrow. If you are not too disagreeable with my ideas and what I post on, would you return the deed. Networking is how I do alot of my Bible study and get feed back. I don’t always want people to agree with my ideas. I’m not looking for approval. I’m searching for growth.
    Jim

  14. Wow! Read your post and all the comments. My assessment of that post is that while you insist you are not saying we are “saved” by works you are saying works are necessary to get into heaven. If works are necessary in order to “get in” how is that not salvation by works?
    Anyway, as you can see I added your blog to my blog roll.

  15. Hi, Minnow.
    Works is sanctification. Sanctification is holiness, not a state we can reach while in the body because, we are foulable. It is a path to pursue. We pursue it by definition.

    What did God mean by saying, “Be Holy as I am Holy”?

    What do you see in this verse from Hebrews?
    “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no-one will see the Lord.

    Sanctification is to be set apart. Set apart from what?

    I ask a lot of rhetorical questions because that is where the answer is.

    Here is what I say sanctification is;
    To be set apart from living according to the ways of the world and to live by God’s standard.

    So, God says, be holy as I am holy. Hebrews 12:14 demonstrates for us that Holiness is defined in our personal interactions. We Christians are commanded to live out our lives among men according to God’s standard, not the standard we set.

    Minnow, with only six percent of all christians truly understanding the core message of the Bible (American Family Association) and only nine percent of all born-again believers having a Biblical world view, I do not expect to be understood. Even by those, such as Randi – Jo who has come to an agreement that we are saying the same thing with slight variances. A Greek adjuct professor who visits my blog from time-to-time emailed me and told me that I have grasped a very difficult concept of Christianity. Then their is the aspiring PHD in Philosophy student who can not agree with me on Salvation and Works.

    So, it may take a while for us to understand each other. But, what I want to confirm to you, is I do not believe we are saved by works. If you read a few verses that discuss salvation, you will see some variations in the meaning and application of salvation.

    one, we are saved from the condemnation of the Law. This means that we don’t have to live by the standard of the law to have atonement and have a relationship with God made available to us. So, all who are in Christ are saved from being judged by the standard of the Law.

    Two, if we are atoned for by the blood of Christ, we are saved from the condemnation of the law and have a relationship with God made available to us. However, we are to excercise our salvation in having love for God and others, this is the fulfillment of the Law. All of the law and the prophets hang on these two commands. If we fail to keep these commands, we will be judged and that judgement is demonstrated in Matthew 25:31-46.

    So, what salvation are you refering to when you assess my post?

    Accepting Christ as the atonement for our sins is salvation. But, their are the two commands to love God and others. Most everyone does not acknowledge that these commands are not suggestions and Jesus does not fulfill these personal commands on our behalf. He can only fulfill the commands to Love God and others on His behalf. This is why Jesus commands it in John 13:34-35. It should actually be translated as New Law. Because, in the Greek, it can say “New Law” and also, most importantly, Jesus would not pretend to give a new command, when this command was already given in Leviticus 19:18.
    I hope you see why we are having difficulty. I say this in the way I can completely tie all loose ends togeather. People may say the Bible does not have loose ends. It doesn’t. However, if a person says that we don’t need works to go to Heaven, then the speaker has a lot to understand in order to have works and salvation couple togeather in a way that makes sense.
    Thanks for adding me to your list. I think I added you to mine already. If not, I will this evening.
    Blessings to you, Minnow.
    Jim

  16. Without studying out these concepts too deeply I have a couple questions.
    You said: “Works is sanctification. Sanctification is holiness, not a state we can reach while in the body because, we are foul-able. It is a path to pursue. We pursue it by definition.”
    How is it possible for works to be sanctification but sanctification to be a state we cannot reach in our bodily form?
    Next, what do you do with Matthew 5:17-20? “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” [Italics mine. Note: they are being called least and greatest within the kingdom of heaven.] Jump then to the cross and Jesus says “It is finished.”
    You seem to be splitting salvation into two parts. Part one, if I’m understanding you correctly, was accomplished on the cross. Jesus opened the door to heaven. Part two needs to be accomplished by us. We have to confess with our mouths and then live it out in our lives or we can’t walk through the door. Yes?
    I don’t see it this way but will wait to find out if this is what you are saying before I respond further.


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